Gejmeri ljuti zbog implementacije Nvidia Gameworksa u Witcheru 3
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Milos1975
Gejmeri ljuti zbog implementacije Nvidia Gameworksa u Witcheru 3
18.05.2015. 17:18
T61300
status: user broj poruka: 417
http://wccftech.com/nvidia-responds-witcher-3-gameworks-controversy/ `It’s very worrisome when one hardware company begins to implement proprietary code into video games which are naturally expected to run on a variety of hardware from different vendors. It’s quite unfortunate that Nvidia has taken this recent turn with GameWorks towards locking code and limiting control. A future where the competitors’ only choice is to fill the game with even more proprietary code of their own to compete is not one that gamers or developers will want or appreciate.`
`GameWorks koriscen da se podrije konkurencija i da se developerima uskrati kontrola nad kodom koji ce biti u igrama koje oni prave`. Nasuprot Nvidiji, AMD aktivno radio da se TressFX podjednako dobro optimizuje i za Nvidiju, tako da podjednako dobro radi i na AMD i na Nvidija grafikama.
Nvidia’s GameWorks program has yet again found itself in the headlines owing to its highly polarizing and controversial nature. GameWorks is an Nvidia program by which game developers are offered Nvidia optimized implementations for specific in-game effects through graphics libraries. The effects include things like shadows, lighting, hair simulation and ambient occlusion. Back when the program was initially rolled out, game developers were prohibited not only from working with competing vendors such as AMD and Intel to optimize these effects for their GPUs but game developers were even denied access to the code itself. Code that would make its way to their game, a frightening prospect.
This sparked a wave of controversy which started when extremetech.com shed light on some genuinely unsettling details with regards to the GameWorks program and how it can and has actually been used to undermine competition and obfuscate control from game developers. A number of prominent game developers went on to publicly criticize Nvidia’s GameWorks program describing it as a “BlackBox” with some developers going as far as to call it “unusable”.
Nasuprot AMDovom Gaming Evolved:
This is in contrast to AMD’s Gaming Evolved Program which the company claims puts no restrictions on developers to optimize game code for any of their competitors. In fact AMD actively worked to optimize its TressFX technology for Nvidia hardware to the point where it performed equally well on both. TressFX is a physics hair simulation technology from AMD that’s comparable to Nvidia’s HairWorks, which produce hair and fur effects . However unlike HairWorks it performs equally well on both AMD and Nvidia hardware partly because the source code is publicly available and has been optimized for Nvidia as mentioned above and partly because code base is quite efficient to begin with. In contrast to GameWorks code which Nvidia only provides to its co-marketing game developer partners, AMD makes the source code to all visual effects in its library available publicly and to everyone for free, including Nvidia.
samo kukaju vise mi ih je pun ..rac kad moram tako prostacki da se izrazim al ne mogu vise da idem na forum gog-a zbog tih ljudi i da diskutujem ko covek
GPU History: NvidiaMX440 Club 3D9250 Foxconn7600GT MSI9600GT MSI GTX660Ti PE OC GPU Future: MSI GTX970 Gaming OC - > Coming soon very soon :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He9-p7f3DEA
Ovo treba posebno izdvojiti iz donjeg teksta: `Whats genuinely ironic is that TressFX actually runs faster than HairWorks on Nvidia’s own hardware too.` (Ono sto je prava ironija je da TressFX radi brze i od samog HairWorksa, i to na Nvidijinom hardveru - znaci, AMDova tehnologija brze radi od tehnologije koju je Nvidija razvila, na Nvidijinom `licnom` hardveru)
Fans are petitioning CD Projekt Red to implement AMD’s TressFX Hair simulation technology, akin to HairWorks, in The Witcher 3. The petition was started following controversy around The Witcher 3 and the use of Nvidia’s HairWorks technology, which is part of Nvidia’s GameWorks developer program.
Nvidia GameWorks
The issue pivots around the very poor performance seen with HairWorks on AMD GPUs and Nvidia’s own non-Maxwell, Kepler based 700 series, 600 series and the older Fermi based GPUs. This recent controversy started just recently when Marcin Momot a spokesperson at CD Projekt Red, the developers behind The Witcher 3, stated that HairWorks, the previously mentioned hair and fur simulation effect from Nvidia’s GameWorks library “cannot be optimized for AMD products”. Here’s a quote of what he said.
Many of you have asked us if AMD Radeon GPUs would be able to run NVIDIA’s HairWorks technology – the answer is yes! However, unsatisfactory performance may be experienced as the code of this feature cannot be optimized for AMD products. Radeon users are encouraged to disable NVIDIA HairWorks if the performance is below expectations.
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Following this statement PC gamers went on the offensive. Criticizing Nvidia’s GameWorks and the company’s game developer partnership program in general. Embodied in this lengthy post on the pcmasterrace subreddit, which has been upvoted over 4400 times in two days and has a 95% positive rating. We covered the history of Nvidia’s GameWorks program and outlined what various parties think of the program in detail in an article a week ago. We’d highly recommend that you go read that article if you want to learn more about why GameWorks garnered such a notorious reputation among gamers. We spoke with Nvidia’s head of PR for GameWorks, Brian Burke, and we’ll bring you an exclusive article about that very soon. CD Projekt Red Petitioned To Use AMD TressFX Hair In The Witcher 3
Now that we discussed how this came to be, let’s discuss the present and the future. The petition which you can find here calls for a TressFX Hair implementation in The Witcher 3. As we briefly mentioned above TressFX is a hair simulation technology which AMD debuted with the Tomb Raider reboot in 2013. The feature has come along way since 2013 and is actually in its third generation now dubbed TressFX Hair 3.0. The Dawn engine for the upcoming Deus Ex universe game, Mankind Divided, developed by Eidos Montreal will leverage TressFX Hair 3.0 throughout.
Unlike HairWorks which is a middleware developed by Nvidia, AMD publishes the source code for TressFX on its website. And due to the open nature of this feature in comparison to HairWorks, AMD heralds TressFX as a superior alternative to HairWorks. Naturally implementing a feature directly into the game requires more work than simply using a middleware like HairWorks. But it also means game developers have absolute control over it and it can easily be optimized cross vendor. Something AMD has always been keen to point out.
This has profound effects on performance. This, AMD points out, allows TressFX to perform equally well on hardware from either vendor. In comparison to HairWorks which the company claims runs 9 time slower on its hardware. Whats genuinely ironic is that TressFX actually runs faster than HairWorks on Nvidia’s own hardware too. Making TressFX a genuinely attractive option to hair and fur physics simulation. And essentially, this is why gamers are calling for its implementation in this petition.
Ja sam gasio tu glupavu kosu i u tomb raideru i ovde, jer je ocaj optimizacija i sakati fps extremno. Ne secam se inace da su se gejmeri bunili za tomb raider sto nema nvidia hair works-a. Nebitna glupava opcija realno. Igra je odlicna i bez toga.
Imam utisak da teme koji Masta Misa postavlja, samo on cita i razume..jer su uglavnom iste ili slicne i potpuno nebitne.
Kosica radi sasvim lepo, koliko vidimo sa svakim novim update-om perfomanse su bolje, tako da AMD igraci mozete samo da gledate, tj. samo oni koji su nastrojeni kao Misa, da prozivaju i pale vatru.
Amd cak i da ubaci svoj mod, igra ima da sece i bode, nije to pravljeno za nizi rang hardvera. :P
`Amd cak i da ubaci svoj mod, igra ima da sece i bode` - napisa covek i ostade ziv.
A lepo gore pise da: TressFX podjednako dobro radi i na AMD i na Nvidia grafikama, cak se AMD trudio da njihova tehnologija radi dobro na Nvidija grafikama.
TressFX radi brze na Nvidija hardveru - od Nvidijinog sopstvenog Gameworksa. Isto kao sto se pokazalo i da Mantle bolje radi od DirectX-a 12, postize vise Draw Calls-a u 3D Marku.
I ne samo to, nego ce i nadolazeci Vulkan API mozda biti bolji od DirectX-a 12: Vulkan Might Have Advantages Over DX12, Says Magicka 2 Dev “DX12 is a big improvement over DX11, it enables games to move to the next generation of graphics. But we’re also eagerly awaiting the official release of OpenGL Vulkan, which might even be better than DX12. Currently we are only experimenting with the API’s but we will of course support them eventually.” http://www.redgamingtech.com/vulkan-might-have-advantages-over-dx12-says-magicka-2-dev/
Brale kapiram ja sve to, ali dok ne izadje i bude aktuelno, ne dajem mu previse znacaja. Mantle dza bu, i na kraju apenac.. Cak i za DX 12 nisam preterano u hype-u, a za vulkan nisam ni znao.. I ovako kad mi i ako mi G1 postane usko grlo, prelazim na PS4/5 i boli me uvo.
Koliko se secam, TressFX nije bas dobro radio na svim karticama, kod mene na gtx 780 je lose radio. Sigurno je HairWorks napredniji i zahtevniji od TressFX, i AMD ce kroz drajvere to popraviti sigurno da bolje radi i na njihovim karticama. Verovatno je bio problem u nekim kodovima same igre, ali je i logicno da nesto sto su sami Nvidia i game developers uradili, bolje radi na njenim karticama.
Videcemo. Ja sam uvek za boje performanse i za povoljniji hardver. AMD i dalje pravi gluposti sa rebrendingom i velikom potrosnjom, ali Mantle, TressFX i FreeSync su vrlo dobre tehnologije - dobre, pre svega, za nase dzepove. I treba ih podrzati.
I ne treba zaboraviti da zbog Gameworksa pate i vlasnici nvidije - svi oni koji nemaju Maxwell. Hairworks radi lose i na Keplerima, ne samo na AMDu (iako postoji onaj fix sa smanjivanjem nivoa teselacije na 8x u Catalystu)
:: Koliko se secam, TressFX nije bas dobro radio na svim karticama, kod mene na gtx 780 je lose radio Ti kazes jedno, oni kazu drugo. Kome verovati? Ja cu pre verovati ljudima sa onog sajta.
:: Sigurno je HairWorks napredniji i zahtevniji od TressFX, i AMD ce kroz drajvere to popraviti sigurno da bolje radi i na njihovim karticama. Mozda zato sto ti volis tako da verujes. Daj dokaz da je `napredniji`, da ne ostane na `ja volim da verujem da je tako, jer preferiram Nvidiju`.
If you want a huge AAA game release to look great on your hardware, you take the initiative to ensure that it does. What you don’t do is expect your competitor to make it easier for you by opening up the technology they’ve invested millions of dollars into. You innovate using your own technologies. Or you increase your resources. Or you bolster your relationships and face time with developers.
In short, you just find a way to get it done.
If I sound frustrated, it’s because I am. I’ve been an enthusiastic fan of AMD for a good long while (just look at the numerous DIY builds and positive reviews I’ve given them), and last year at this same time I was admittedly on the other side of this argument. But what I’m seeing now is a company who keeps insisting their sole competitor make their job easier “for the good of PC gaming.” And I see said competitor continuing to innovate with graphics technologies that make games more beautiful. And I see promises like the concept of “OpenWorks” laying stagnant a full year after they’re hyped up. And I see AMD’s desktop GPU market share continue to slip and think to myself “maybe this is not a coincidence.”
Pa, dao si informaciju koja je stara 6 meseci, procito sam bas dosta u vezi ovoga, pa postalo je aktuelno tek sad sa Witcher 3, Project Cars i drugim Nvidia GameWorks igrama. Pa, sta se dogodilo sa TressFX, zasto nije AMD nastavio da unapredjuje tu tehnologiju, to je bilo pre dve godine, od tad nista, iako je delovalo kao nesto dobro za gaming. HairWorks ne renduje samo `dlake` na telima, moze da se primeni i na odevne predmete i prostirke za stolice itd., tako tek treba da pokaze svoju pravu primenu. A, i deo je NV GameWorksa, tako da sa svim ovim grafickim unapredjenjima sigurno daje bolju sliku i grafiku u igrama.
Ne mogu da kazem da znam sve detalje, ali najlakse bi bilo da vidimo slike, uporedo: ista scena renderovana sa TressFX, i sa Hairworksom. I da vidimo FPS. Ako je `razlika` ista kao kada se koristi 16x antialiasing nasuprot 8x... Da li je vredno pada performansi? Mnogi ljudi po forumima kazu da, nakon sto su odradili onaj fix sa smanjivanjem nivoa teselacije za Witcher u Catalystu, da `ne vide gubitak kvaliteta`... Sta znam. Ko nije u toku, radi se o ovom fixu: http://wccftech.com/amd-announces-witcher-3-hairworks-performance-fix-catalyst-control-center-driver-coming-boost-tessellation-performance/
:: Pa, dao si informaciju koja je stara 6 meseci, procito sam bas dosta u vezi ovoga, pa postalo je aktuelno tek sad sa Witcher 3, Project Cars i drugim Nvidia GameWorks igrama :: Pa, sta se dogodilo sa TressFX, zasto nije AMD nastavio da unapredjuje tu tehnologiju, to je bilo pre dve godine, od tad nista, iako je delovalo kao nesto dobro za gaming :: HairWorks ne renduje samo `dlake` na telima, moze da se primeni i na odevne predmete i prostirke za stolice itd., tako tek treba da pokaze svoju pravu primenu. A, i deo je NV GameWorksa, tako da sa svim ovim grafickim unapredjenjima sigurno daje bolju sliku i grafiku u igrama :: :: ::
We`re currently testing The Witcher 3 across a range of PC hardware, with a view to benchmarking performance across AMD, Intel and Nvidia kit and we`ll report back with our findings soon.
AMD`s argument appears to be that there is no access to GameWorks source code, making optimisation for the technology extremely difficult. Meanwhile, Nvidia counters by suggesting that most of its own optimisation work generally is carried out via analysis of the final, compiled code, rather than the source.
From our perspective, HairWorks - just like the TressFX tech found in Tomb Raider - is best considered as an expensive luxury to be enabled only if you have a vast surfeit of GPU compute power available. With regards AMD performance generally, you`ll note that the GTX 970 and the R9 290X offer similar frame-rates once HairWorks is disabled - so the good news is that GameWorks integration hasn`t crippled AMD GPUs overall. Whether you own an Nvidia or AMD graphics card, our suggestion is to run The Witcher 3 with HairWorks turned off for best performance. The bottom line is that if a superb card like the GTX 970 (which is running the optimised HairWorks code, remember) produces sub-30fps performance dips with the technology enabled, that`s a lot of GPU resource that could be better spent elsewhere, like aiming for a consistent 60fps for example.
Dobro, ima svasta na net-u, i svakakva objasnjenja, ali je zanimljivo da HairWorks lose radi i na Kepler karticama, a takodje i u Project Cars koji nema tu obradu dlake, ali ima jak Physx ugrajden u igru. To sa Keplerom je meni neki indikator je problem neke dublje prirode, a sta je u pitanju, mislim da ce se sa buducim igrama razotkriti.
Nvidia has announced that there are a few issues that affected Kepler GPUs in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, and is working on driver updates to resolve them. The Witcher 3 underperformed on non Maxwell GeForce cards so this is great news.
Whether the optimization updates will only offer better performance in Nvidia HairWorks enabled scenarios or if they will have better performance results in general, remains to be seen. The Witcher 3, is a quite demanding title, especially when the HairWorks setting is enabled, where most GPUs struggle to offer a smooth enough experience.
There’s a workaround on how to run HairWorks on AMD GPUs without crippling performance, which enables AMD GPU users to enjoy The Witcher 3 with the HairWorks setting enabled and actually getting better performance than GeForce users not using a Maxwell architecture Nvidia GPU.
:: Dobro, ima svasta na net-u, i svakakva objasnjenja, ali je zanimljivo da HairWorks lose radi i na Kepler karticama, a takodje i u Project Cars koji nema tu obradu dlake, ali ima jak Physx ugrajden u igru :: To sa Keplerom je meni neki indikator je problem neke dublje prirode, a sta je u pitanju, mislim da ce se sa buducim igrama razotkriti :: :: ::
Da, video sam, ali sta ce uraditi sa Project Cars, i drugim igrama, tu nema HairWorks, ljudi se zale na mnogo manje performanse u odnosu na Maxvell u mnogim igrama koje su izasle u poslednje vreme. Ja koliko sam video na net-u, neko moje misljenje je, da to ima veze sa prebacivanjem nekih Physx efekata na CPU i sa tim nekim problemom sa CPU Multi-threading Performance, koji ce se ispraviti sa Windowsom 10. Recimo, R290X mnogo bolje radi u Project Cars na W10 nego na W7.
Samo da ne bude monopolizacije tehnologija. Neka Hairworks i slicno radi bolje na Nvidijama, ali neka radi bolje zato sto je AMD losiji, hardverski slabiji, a ne zato sto Nvidija nije dozvolila optimizaciju, ili slicno, sto su kvarni potezi - i losi za nas. Ne kazem da se to desilo, jer nisam `na licu mesta` da znam sve detalje, ali ne bih voleo takve stvari da se desavaju - jer to ce se lose odraziti za nas... Kao u bici sa Intelom koju je AMD izgubio, pa skoro da nema nikakvog napretka jer Intel nema sa kime da se takmici. Poz.
:: Da, video sam, ali sta ce uraditi sa Project Cars, i drugim igrama, tu nema HairWorks, ljudi se zale na mnogo manje performanse u odnosu na Maxvell u mnogim igrama koje su izasle u poslednje vreme :: Ja koliko sam video na net-u, neko moje misljenje je, da to ima veze sa prebacivanjem nekih Physx efekata na CPU i sa tim nekim problemom sa CPU Multi-threading Performance, koji ce se ispraviti sa Windowsom 10 :: Recimo, R290X mnogo bolje radi u Project Cars na W10 nego na W7 :: :: ::
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